Fighting for a Cause
It’s a struggle of the spirit, without arms

Four members of the Aliran Monthly editorial board met Dr Wan Azizah Wan Ismail, wife of sacked deputy prime minister Anwar Ibrahim, at her Bukit Damansara home in Kuala Lumpur recently.

The house looked almost deserted when we arrived at 3 pm for our appointment. We walked around the house and spotted a replaced wooden panel on the front door and a missing glass pane on the window - telling evidence of the excessive force that police used when they broke into the house to arrest Anwar on the night of 20 September, soon after he had led massive demonstrations in the capital.

Presently, a young aide opened the panelled door and ushered us into the spacious but modestly furnished living room. While we waited, we wondered if she would be guarded in articulating her views due to the gag order slapped on her.

Soon, the woman whom many in the fledgling Reformasi movement look to for inspiration appeared. Dressed in a simple, stylish pink and white baju kurung, Azizah appeared supremely confident and fielded our questions deftly, without any airs, during the 40-minute session.

In this exclusive wide-ranging interview with Aliran Monthly, one of her rare interviews with the local media (which she avoids because, she says, they distort her views), she provides an insightful glimpse into her background, her family’s recent trials, the recent street protests and the challenges facing the Reformasi movement, and Malaysians generally.

Aliran Monthly’s Interview with Wan Azizah 

Aliran Monthly: On behalf of Aliran, we would like to thank you for granting us this interview, which we are sure our readers will appreciate reading. Please convey our concern to Datuk Seri Anwar and inform him that we’re praying for him and hoping that he will have a fair hearing in court.

It’s been nearly two months since Anwar was sacked as Deputy Prime Minister and expelled from UMNO and about one month since he was arrested. How is your family, especially the children, coping with the situation?

Wan Azizah: The children of course miss their father terribly. They have had their little episodes - one had an anxiety attack. They had to go to school when earlier on they didn’t feel like going. And then they had fever, conjunctivitis and all that.  So, I had to deal with all that. This is quite normal in any family - the illnesses here and there.

But our family is now in a turmoil. Their father has been treated in this way and the children feel the outrage.  My eldest daughter tried her level best; she went over and tried to seek some political support from family friends - not as an emissary but just to meet President (Joseph) Estrada and President (B.J.) Habibie. That was it.

And the other children, they continue. Life has to go on - because their father left them the message  that they are the children of a fighter. They have to continue because it is very important to have an education, to have the ideals and the principles. They have to fight, but they must go on with their education. It is important.

Aliran: For many Malaysians, you haven’t been a very public person until recently. Could you tell us a bit about yourself and your background before becoming the wife of a national leader.

Azizah: I grew up in Kedah, Mahathir’s state. I grew up with my uncle and aunt because my father studied in London at that time and he had to leave me behind. Dr Mahathir was an MP when I was growing up.  I remember Datin Sri Dr. Siti Hasmah (Mahathir’s wife) came to officiate at my school’s fun-fair.  I was guard of honour - many years ago. And Marina Mahathir was also my junior in school.

I studied in St. Nicholas Convent, Alor Setar, from Standard One to Form Five.  I liked the Convent school very much.  The nuns taught me a lot. I can still recite ‘Our Father who art in heaven…(recites the prayer),’ all right?  I went to Tengku Kurshiah College for a while and then I was in Dublin for six years. I was the top student for Obstretics and Gynaecology for my year and won a gold medal. My name is inscribed in the halls of the College of Surgeons, which is very important because it is a Malaysian girl’s name.  Of course, there are two other Malaysians, but I was the first female. But I don’t usually brag you know…(smiles)

I was a houseman in the GH in Kuala Lumpur. That’s where I first met Anwar - he was visiting Datin Sri Dr Siti Hasmah’s sister.  She had an appendicitis. I was on duty and he came to see her and that’s how we met.

I was in GH all the time.  I was on scholarship so I had to do 10 years of service. I did 14 years - until Anwar was DPM. Then I stopped and then I went back for volunteer service.

Aliran: Has Anwar been given adequate access to his lawyers. Are there complaints about this?

Azizah: Initially, he did not have any access but (for the) hearing, he could see his lawyers - three lawyers at a time, office hours. Not on Tuesdays and Public Holidays. On Tuesdays, the Magistrate comes to the prison, so nobody is allowed to go. Other days, yes.

Aliran: Does he find it difficult to prepare for his case because he is detained?

Azizah: Yes, in a way - because when he was arrested, they came to ransack the house.  From 12 midnight to 6 in the morning - three groups coming and going, ransacked everything. Sometimes you need files and letters, which helps in the defence; so we have a bit of a difficulty in that sense.

Aliran: When you request the material, is it made available?

Azizah: The office is sealed. The moment Anwar came out of office, his two offices were sealed.  It is difficult to go in and access. And his dairies also...I don’t know where they are.  So, it is up to the lawyers; I cannot comment further on these legal matters.

Aliran: When they came, did they have a Search Warrant?

Azizah: No, no Search Warrant. We asked for the Search Warrant. Dia kata (they said), “Move aside, masuk (enter).  30 orang (people).” Actually, we stopped them. There were so many, so we said,  “Eh cukuplah, janganlah banyak-banyak.” (That’s enough, please, not too many.) They went upstairs, downstairs, geledah sana, geledah sini (rummaging here and there). And then one group went; a second group came. So tiring. I don’t know what they were looking for.

Aliran: Did they give you an inventory?

Azizah: Yes, they had a search list after that. They took some tapes. All the tapes that were for the Gerak Reformasi - not the Gerak (Malaysian People’s Justice Movement) - whatever Anwar had been doing.

Aliran: Regular protest marches and demonstrations have taken place in Kuala Lumpur recently. Do you regard this as a hopeful sign for the future of Malaysian democracy?

Azizah: Any protest is a hopeful sign for me because if it dies down, then everything is forgotten - people get on with their lives. Ideals tend to die once you have a full stomach:   “So Anwar is in jail; so what? I can still get up and go to work and get on with life.”

But when people feel strong enough to think that this cause is for them also to fight, that is important. These street protests are important, and it is an eye-opener. Suddenly, people open their eyes. Suddenly, they feel it is up to them as well to do something for their country. That is important.

Aliran: Reports of violence have emerged in the last demonstration at Kampung Baru. What are your views on the actions of the police and the protesters?

Azizah: The protesters came and showed me the scars and the wounds and the bruises. Yes, they came and showed me because I’m not directly involved, but I’m so sympathetic because they are doing this on my behalf. The brutality is actually on the part of the police.

They (the authorities) have to prove that the protesters were the ones (who were violent).  If you go to those who have been arrested, who are in hospital…who are the ones who got beaten up, you tell me?  And two policemen came out, ini scratch sana, ini scratch sini (with just a couple of scratches here and there), two policemen - then what is your evidence?  And then you have these protesters sudah four stitches sana, patah sana, patah sini (with severe injuries), so who’s resorting to violence?

Aliran: How should the demonstrators react when confronted with aggressive police personnel?

Azizah: How can you react?  It’s only natural. You give, okay, tiga minit bersurai (three minutes to disperse).  And then after 30 seconds, you blast them with the water cannon.  Of course-lah…then you see your wife or your daughter or your sister being blasted on the face-ke, tarik rambut-ke (being dragged by the hair), it’s natural, you rasa (feel), how can (they do this)?

And what did the ladies do?  The ladies protest as well and you call them pelacur (prostitutes). How can?!

Of course, it is very Christian to turn the other cheek, but it’s not very right at the moment. You are not doing anything wrong and they put all the blame on you.

This is self-defence. It’s not fair. All I’m saying is - I’m appealing to the police - please, these are your people. Ini orang-orang kita (These are our people). Adakah kita sanggup melihat (Can we bear to see) you brutalising your own people?

Aliran: People have been expecting you to carry the torch since Anwar’s arrest. In what way do you see yourself playing a leading role in the Reformasi movement?

Azizah: I have to carry on - because we are not talking about just Anwar the man. We’re talking about a cause that we have for the country as a whole.  But they have clipped me -  my hands, my feet, everything. Everything I do is misconstrued. I wave like Queen Victoria, they call it ‘incitement’; I say saya takut my husband kena anything injection-ke atau apa ke (I fear that my husband will be injected or something), they say it’s ‘sedition’. And then they show my husband with a black eye.  My fears are not unfounded, right?

So, as leader of the movement, I represent the goodness of the people of Malaysia and I want to call upon that, to bring that out. I think there are a lot of Malaysians who are kind-hearted, good, you know, wanting the best for our country, patriotic. That’s why we are seeing all this coming forward: fighting for a cause - without arms or anything. Just the spirit, semangat.

Mana kita ada weapons atau apa-apa (where do we have the weapons).  Siapa yang buang molotov cocktail tu, siapa?  (Who threw the molotov cocktails, who?) Prove it - siapa (who)?

And if they really want to harm  anything…only one police station (was attacked). If the protesters are so well organised, I’m sure all the police stations would have been attacked. So it’s not fair.  They (the protesters) are so frustrated.

And then they bring in these FRU (Federal Reserve Unit personnel). (The) FRU memang (were certainly) very, very rough and at one time, cruel juga (too).

Aliran: What do you think of the involvement of Gerak (the Malaysian People’s Justice Movement) and Gagasan (the Coalition for People’s Democracy) in all this?

Azizah: It is very good - because they are also the voices of the people. But what Anwar has fought for is not (for any) political (party), not (for) PAS, not (for) UMNO, not (for the) DAP. It cuts across all (partisan) borders, cuts across everybody, the (various) races as well. You see the Indians, the Malays, the Chinese - of course, the Malays mostly got belasah (whacked); the Indians are mostly the lawyers; and the Chinese are the co-ordinators.  So I think it has brought them together.

Aliran: Some people feel that the Anwar controversy is really a Malay issue and therefore it is best left to the Malays to resolve. Others worry that the Reformasi movement may unleash  extremist Islamic forces that might alienate the non-Muslims.

Azizah: I know that.  The Chinese mainly - if they can do business, they are all right. That is a Chinese trait.  But their spirit is with us. A lot of Chinese feel it in themselves that they want change as well.

They talk about extremist views, but who is being extreme in this case? isn’t it the government?  Of course, in anything you have the moderates (and) the extremists - but the bulk of the people are so moderate in this case. It is the police who are taking extreme measures.

Aliran: Still others think the Reformasi movement is creating instability…

Azizah: Instability in what way? It’s only on most weekends, you see a bit of excitement, isn’t it?  Life goes on. What instability are you’re talking about? You have APEC, you have Sukom, you have this, you have that. Of course, people are angry, but life goes on.

Our country is still stable, in a sense.  We can have a little bit of protesting - why not?  Because this is what the people want to express, isn’t it?  What instability? You want to go anywhere (in the country), you still feel safe nowadays, don’t you think so?

Of course, now if you feel unsafe, it is the police…wah, you cakap sikit reformasi (if you just mention reforms), wah, are you going to get caught? That is the instability, I feel, that people are feeling now. That is not political instability, that is police instability, isn’t it?  Reformasi!

Aliran: Do you think there is a ground-swell of support for Anwar and the Reformasi movement around the country. Or is this sentiment only confined to urban areas especially in the Klang Valley?

Azizah: No, you go to Kelantan, you go to Trengganu, you go to Kedah….because when Anwar went there to Kedah, 100,000 (turned up) - and this is next to (the) PM’s Kubang Pasu (constituency).

About three or four days ago, this lady came back from Kedah. Dia kata (she said), “Saya balik kampung, mak saya yang veteran UMNO (I went back to the kampong and my mother, an UMNO veteran) cannot (stand) the TV. Dia kata, ‘Kenapa cakap belit-belit?’ (Why are they twisting their words, she asked)”

I mean, they are seeing through that. Satu hari cakap ini, satu hari cakap lain (One day you say something; another day you contradict yourself). So, this is a very important turning point. The people in the villages - they are also important, because they are the bulk of the country and the voters and UMNO on the ground.  Whatever the propaganda that has been going on, it is not working.  There is hope for our country. Itu yang saya rasa sangat tu (I’m really touched).

Aliran: If Anwar is unable over the long term to lead any reform movement, do you think Reformasi will just fade away?

Azizah: That’s what the government is hoping -  (that) it will die down.  But the thing is the bulk of these people are the middle class and the lower-middle class, yang really feel it (who are really feeling it), because when Anwar was DPM, he tried to help these people.

That is what I told the PM’s wife when I went to see her: “We had such a good thing (going) for our country.  Okay (the) PM - tallest building, tallest this, tallest that.  Okay, he has the vision - great for our country, why not?  And then you have Anwar talking about the masses, low-cost housing, taking care of your workers, this and that.  Why not?  This is a good combination. That’s how our country should work.  Why must we upset all these things?”

Anyway, when the currency fell, the cake wasn’t big enough to go around. Then the trouble started.

Aliran: What was the PM’s wife’s response to that?

Azizah: Oh, she is very nice, she is very motherly. “I’m sorry Azizah, you have to accept that. This is like fate.” Thank you.

Aliran: What seems to be happening in UMNO now? Some people say infighting to fill Anwar’s position is occurring.

Azizah: UMNO has always been like that, (in) any election. Party elections - there’s scrambling, right?  In 1987, (there was also) scrambling all round.  It is kind of a tradition that posts will be there and people will vie for the post.  Fair enough.  Anwar has filled a post at a certain level.  That is what it should be in a political party’s normal democratic process.  But Anwar was sacked from his party post - that should not be because it is the ordinary members who should decide that.

Aliran: Is there a need for UMNO itself to reform then for it to survive?

Azizah: I don’t think it needs that much reform.  I think the workings (of the party) are all right. It’s just the application - like now the President has so much power that nobody dares to say anything.  So where is the democracy within it(?) - even though the process may be supposedly democratic. Like my husband always said, just administration of unjust laws or unjust administration of just laws, it’s the same thing. In a way, the results will be the same.

UMNO, I think, can work.  UMNO has worked so far.  Now, because of the protest, somehow you adulterated all the principles that Anwar has stood for. A lot of the party members want to just show a protest.  As a party, though, it is still viable.

It’s strange; I have this feeling that that post is still vacant for Anwar to come out (and fill). To me, I think that if he comes out, he will be able to fill it again.  Wishful thinking? I don’t know.

Aliran: If Anwar is not prohibited from participating in politics, will he form a new party?

Azizah: No ...for one thing, before you can form a new party, they won’t register-lo.

Aliran: Have you given interviews with any of the other local media?

Azizah: Local  - tak perlu; tak guna (pointless; no use). They are interested - but then they twist my words. Sakit hati (it hurts).

Aliran: What’s your vision of a better Malaysia? Specifically, is there an ISA in your vision?

Azizah: No.

Aliran: People would have the right to protest peacefully?

Azizah: Yes, of course - freedom of speech, of course. But you don’t have to protest if you have avenues to say your stuff; you don’t have to take to the streets. If Aliran can come out to voice (alternative opinions) and you feel that you have been heard and have been given due process and due recognition, fine.  You don’t have to go and shout things like that on the street.  There is an alternative.

Aliran: What do you say to Malaysians who have not awakened to the need for reforms?

Azizah: In life, you may try to win over (people). You may have a majority, but you can’t (win) everybody (over) to your point of view. That is natural. Those who haven’t awakened? Well, they may think they are sitting on the fence or they (may) say they are not strong enough to come forward to put their views across; I accept that - because that is their opinion, their right to exercise.  But the majority, the bulk of us, really feel that something unjust has been done - and that is what we’re trying to make right.

Aliran: Some people think that Dr. Mahathir is indispensable.

Azizah: Nobody is indispensable in this life, that’s for sure. Not me, not anybody.